Free will, or election?

sorry about the verse typo and thanks for catching that.

I agree with what you wrote.

I believe the bible teaches that lost people are spiritually dead in sin and can not understand spiritual things unless they are revealed by the Holy Spirit. (Ephesians 2:1, 1 Corinthians 2:14) Salvation is by grace through faith in Christ. That faith comes from the Holy Spirit moving in us when we hear the gospel (that Christ died for our sins). Without the Holy Spirit working in us, the gospel seems foolish and I believe that we will not (can not?) choose God. I believe that the Father chooses us first and draws us to Him through Christ.

About the altar call, I don't have a problem with the idea. I was raised in a church that did it. However, I know people who heard the truth in church but weren't ready and their regeneration actually occurred at a later time when they were alone. God saves people when He saves people. For people that go forward at the altar call, I agree that they can be saved before they ever take the first step.
 
Odale said:
I believe that this [quote from ppar] is possibly the best and most accurate answer this topic can achieve.

God knows what it's like to be human because of Jesus; and hypothetically speaking... even if there had been no Jesus, I firmly believe that he would still know what it's like to be human and wonder about topics such as this to which there is no definite and tangible answer.

One professor I had a while back said this about religion: "It does not make sense. You just have to run with it."

I think that this is one of those topics.

God knows we try our best. ;)
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No, they are not biblical. They are what I believe. ;)
 
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In some ways Tolkien I think you are asking for the impossible. If anyone could point to a verse in the bible that conclusively point one way or the other without contridiction anywhere else we never would be having this discussion.

I do however think you are on the right track in some ways asking ppl how their views fit with the word of God but (as I say here all the time) it can only be done with a careful exploration of the historical, political, literary, and occasional context of the scriptures. This is a massive undertaking however and the only point I really know much to say here is that the bible was written during a period in which ppl were relatively happy believing in seemingly mutually exclusive views simultaniously.

I would also say though that I am with Odale in that God requires us to use the word of God and project its message forward into our live and context. A perfect example of this is the verse in Romans 12 which is mistranslated to say "therefore....this is your spiritual act of worship. Correctly translated it should read "this is your rational act of worship". It seems what Paul is saying is that given the last 11 chapters of Romans that I have written to you the appropriate outcome is to use the faculties God has given you to live this out in your life. Paul then give a few chapters of practical examples in which individuals can use their rational logic to live out the word of God.

All of this to say that I think in a context in which the bible was written were contridicting views were not so big a deal. Thus I think God would require us to take what we know from the word of God and use our God given logic to develop a theory.

While this discussion may seem like fancy religious debates that have no practical outcomes. I think that the idea of free will vs determinism is deeply practical. I think it is at the heart of the question of "is God fair", "are ppl really responsible for their actions", etc. etc.

I choose this view. I hold the contridiction and state in my head both that God choose me and I choose Christ. This way I am both humbled by Gods call on my life and gain hope in the belief that my friends may use their own free will to find him.
 
I really have no expectations of changing people's views through debate. The main reason for me posting and challenging is to help stengthen or change my own view, and to encourage thought.

The reason I post asking questions about if a view is biblical isn't to argue or negate the point. I believe in sola scriptura (by scripture alone), meaning that the Bible is God's perfect word and is the final authority of Christian doctrine. I do not believe that we can base our theology on our own personal experiences or opinions, but that we must always base our doctrine on what is written in the Bible.

For this topic, I don't believe that having an opinion on it one way or the other determines if a person is saved. I used to believe that I chose Christ and was saved, now I believe that he first gave me the ability to choose him. Either way, I'm saved by grace through faith in Christ's death for my sin.

Agree or disagree, I've been finding lately that I enjoy theological discussion that encourages deep thought on my part.
 
No no I agree with what you were doing 100% and I think the issue you have brought up holds deeply personal and practical significance.

I was just trying to point out that the bible, while the prefect word of God, is written within certain contexts that we do not share. Thus, it is my opinion that the bible represents the perfect word of God and specifically captures an example of the way God reltes to his people. There is no denying then that this example, while the perfect word of God, is still written within a historical and cultural period that is not our own and was often written in response to certain situations that we are not privvy to. Thus it is my belief that our "rational act of worship" that Paul was talking about in Romans is to develop an understanding of the truths explained in the word of God and apply it to my life now, some 200yrs after it was written.

For me then, I see little point in reading the bible without trying to understand the context in which it was written. I have been accused that this shows little respect for the word of God. I hold that it shows the upmost respect for God. This is very far from the topic we started on but I got carried away.

The only last point i would make is that while the bible is objectively the word of God our subjective reading of it is often far from that. I point to the example of the principal I mentioned before who told his kids that god only loved those who he choose to become Christians. We read the bible through the filter of our life experience, culture, and values (this are often very far removed from those of the writers of the bible). Thus it is my belief that discussions like this are important as we battle to hold the msg of the cross dear and aim to remove from our beliefs that which is cultural rather than christian.
 
sorry if I came across defensively. I didn't mean to. I was just clarifying that I wasn't trying to argue or debate with an intent to change people's mind. If anything I'd like to encourage people to turn to the bible to strengthen their own views.

I agree with you completely on context too. A big reason why my wife and I left our last church was because the pastor was teaching topic-based sermons and was injecting his own ideas into scripture. The church where we now attend now teaches the bible in context, verse-by-verse.
 
Tolkien said:
sorry if I came across defensively. I didn't mean to. I was just clarifying that I wasn't trying to argue or debate with an intent to change people's mind. If anything I'd like to encourage people to turn to the bible to strengthen their own views.

I agree with you completely on context too. A big reason why my wife and I left our last church was because the pastor was teaching topic-based sermons and was injecting his own ideas into scripture. The church where we now attend now teaches the bible in context, verse-by-verse.
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Me and my wife are in the process of leaving our church for exactly the same reason (though it has been tricky considering the minister in question is family). We are searching for a church that does exactly as yours does.
 
The way I understand what I've learned is that we begin life existing with God then upon acceptance of him, we begin coexisting.
 
I am moving to San Diego in a week. I am going to use that church search and check out the few in the area. I will let you know how it goes.
 
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